How are your outlets?

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JR.
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How are your outlets?

Post by JR. »

In the process of my little DIY time/temp smart thermostat project, I noticed that my outlet was getting noticeably warm from the <7A heater draw. I decided to replace the outlet with the best $0.59 made in China I could get at Lowes.

First thing I noticed was black and white were cross wired in my ole outlet, so any polarized 2 circuit line cords were connected ass backwards. The 3rd lead ground was left floating, and there was no ground lead to find to connect it to.. The junction box was floating too.

I left the ground floating since the practice of connecting ground to neutral is a little dicey. If the neutral line between the outlet and the panel opens up, the ground is now energized so you could end up with a hot chassis, more or less in series with primary winding.

I am a very vocal advocate on not using ground lifts on 3 wire plugs, and even connect the ground screw on the 3 circuit plug adapters, which in hindsight was a waste of time, since the junction box was floating.

Just for fun I did some measurements around my poorly wired house. I used a crude voltage sniffer by connecting the ground lead to my body, and probed with the hot lead. This way I can detect the hot (circa 40-50VAC), neutral (circa 5V) and floating grounds (circa 20V).

After digesting this I am inclined to pick up a few GFCI outlets (3 for $27 at Lowes) and at least protect my bathroom and kitchen outlets,.

I wonder how many ground issues are related to grounds actually tied to neutral, while even that extra noise should be rejected by good input differentials. I do know of one death related to an electrician who thought he was tying ground to neutral but connected ground to hot instead. One dead guitar player resulted when he got between two amps plugged into two different outlets. The one on his stove was actually well grounded, the other outlet ground was hot.

I don't know is every VOM will give comparable results to my rat Shack special, but it seems easy enough to confirm outlet wiring... If the ground and neutral have exactly the same AC voltage I would be nervous that it isn't a true ground.

It's always something... but I suspect there are many houses with undisciplined wiring.

JR

PS: I checked the switched outlet strip on my bench, plugged into a 2 circuit edison outlet with the grounding screw in the 3 to 2 adapter. Apparently it too is cross wired with a floating junction box. When I switch off the power strip it just breaks the path of what it thinks is hot (actually neutral), so strangely, when the outlet strip is switched off, I measure hot on both sides of each outlet as hot couples through the primary of whatever is plugged in. :lol: :oops:
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emrr
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Re: How are your outlets?

Post by emrr »

I discovered those little plug-in wiring indicators that light up to show condition will lie to you. If you have an ungrounded 3 prong outlet, and something with a ground prong is plugged into one outlet, a tester in the other outlet will say ground is present.

An electrician friend recently told me of letting an employee go who had wired every outlet in a new house backwards with respect to hot and neutral, guys comment was "it's just an electrical outlet".
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JR.
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Re: How are your outlets?

Post by JR. »

raf wrote:If the outlet is hot, it's got loose connections.
Actually the plug was getting hot, after I unplugged and replugged it a few times it ran cooler. But I decided to replace the outlet anyhow.

The actual heater line cord plugged into the outlet on my thermostat-o-jiggy was cool as a cucumber carrying the exact same current. That $0.59 Chinese wonder outlet has noticeably more grip or contact force on the plug blades.
NEVER use the type that have the quick insert connections EVEN IF you wire with the screws.
?
Use the kind that have a proper clamp plate style terminal.
The $0.59 Chinese special has both push connect and screws, but I would never trust a 15A outlet to quick connect push wires. Several low current lamps I've seen only have the push wire connections for ballast and lamp sockets.
If our country's regulatory agencies were not operated by organized crime, these cheap 15A receptacles would NEVER be legal... Many buildings have burned in favor of low bid criminals, er contractors
So much drama.

I noticed that the outlets specify the push wire quick connect is only rated for a single gauge wire size. I have heard of problems with wrong size wire.
Then of course, get the hot/neutral fixed
The color of the wires was correct, just miswired to the wrong sides at the outlet(s).
and then test the center tap connetion on your utility transformer by presenting an uneven load on one leg and measure the free leg for excessive V drop
The panel seems to be one thing that is wired OK. A few years back when my light bulbs were getting scary bright one night, I actually checked across the two legs to make sure my center tap was solid, it was, My high voltage that night was coming from a stuck step-up outoformer at the sub-station up the road a couple miles, that was't dropping back as residential load released. .

I noticed some dodgy loose wiring under the stove another time when one of the burners stopped heating a couple years ago... I need to go back and put some wire nuts on those loose taped wire to wire connections. :roll:


I still think I'll pick up a few GFCI outlets next time at the hardware store for my bathroom and kitchen JIC.

If I was doing live sound, I'd probably drop a quad box with GFCI outlets for the guitar amps.

JR

PS: In about two days my little heater has gone from barely running only at the coldest middle of the night, to temperature reading off scale high. It only reads up to 71'.. But now I am thinking of expanding the concept to control my small window air conditioner that I only run for few minutes during the summer just before bedtime to cool off the bedroom and knock down the humidity. Another task ideal for automation. I need to expand the temperature scale to 2' per LED to cover a 24' span and flip around the color scheme, perhaps to red for actual and green for temp target in cooling mode. but no hurry.
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JR.
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Re: How are your outlets?

Post by JR. »

emrr wrote:I discovered those little plug-in wiring indicators that light up to show condition will lie to you. If you have an ungrounded 3 prong outlet, and something with a ground prong is plugged into one outlet, a tester in the other outlet will say ground is present.
yup,,, best are voltage sniffers similar to my one lead VOM (with other lead grounded to me).
An electrician friend recently told me of letting an employee go who had wired every outlet in a new house backwards with respect to hot and neutral, guys comment was "it's just an electrical outlet".
FWIW, the Peavey court case where the guitar player was killed by a miswired outlet was in NC... hmmm maybe same guy. :oops:

JR
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Re: How are your outlets?

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Doing a little follow up, I notice that the line cord I added from my gizmo to the wall, while similar thickness and weight by feel, runs warmer than the stock line cord wire from the heater. I though this was a pretty robust line cord but apparently big on insulation, light on actual copper.

Not a big deal for a heater but for air conditioner control I don't need to make any extra heat.

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Re: How are your outlets?

Post by mediatechnology »

JR - Is your house pier and beam with the outlets fed from below?
If so you may be able to ground them.
We drilled with a flex extension through the outlet box, through the bottom 2x4 plate and sub-floor and then fished in ground lines with the bit as it was being retracted.
We were able to do all but one outlet.
Fortunately our basement allowes us to stand up in about half of it.

I would check but I think even 1950s-era code required grounded boxes near water.
You may have a bare copper wiring tieing the box to ground or cold water pipe in the kitchen and bathroom.

If you still have a fusebox in a 2-wire home there may be difficulty insuring it if you were to change carriers or sell it.

In our old house I occasionally found neutral and ground reversed. Those circuits were very,very noisy.
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JR.
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Re: How are your outlets?

Post by JR. »

mediatechnology wrote:JR - Is your house pier and beam with the outlets fed from below?
If so you may be able to ground them.
We drilled with a flex extension through the outlet box, through the bottom 2x4 plate and sub-floor and then fished in ground lines with the bit as it was being retracted.
We were able to do all but one outlet.
Fortunately our basement allowes us to stand up in about half of it.
It looks like the wiring is all run through the attic.
I would check but I think even 1950s-era code required grounded boxes near water.
You may have a bare copper wiring tieing the box to ground or cold water pipe in the kitchen and bathroom.
That would be nice. but I didn't see any evidence of a ground wire.

The wire coming out of the panel looks like cheap romex that AFAIK has a ground lead.
If you still have a fusebox in a 2-wire home there may be difficulty insuring it if you were to change carriers or sell it.
bummer I may have to die here...
In our old house I occasionally found neutral and ground reversed. Those circuits were very,very noisy.
I don't have that worry with no grounds... but I did find hot ans neutral backwards on the one outlet I replaced. I am still leaning toward picking up a few GFCI I think they're less than $10 ea in 3 pack.

The 3 wire safety ground is so last century...

JR
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Re: How are your outlets?

Post by JR. »

I just replace the outlets in my kitchen and bathroom with cheap ($12) made in China GFCI outlets. They barely fit inside the junction boxes but seem to work fine for now.

Not only did none of the 3 wire outlets have anything connected to the ground lug, but the outlet in the kitchen had hot and neutral backwards, and the screw on the black (hot) wire was loose. Good time to replace.

I recall as a kid growing up my older brothers doing wiring around the house and we always ran and properly connected the ground lugs, The guys who wired up my house were not as competent. So far I am finding about 50% with hot and neutral swapped, and no grounds connected on any.

I also see a bunch of 30A fuses in the box. AFAIK branch circuits are supposed to be 20A max.

Oh well, slightly safer now than yesterday.

JR
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Re: How are your outlets?

Post by JR. »

Based on what I've seen so far the odds of my wiring being 10ga are little and none... :lol: I was pleased to see modern-looking romex and not some old cloth insulation.

When I replaced my big in-wall air conditioner with a heat pump version last fall, I made sure to get the 240V model, my previous one was 120V and a current hog. New one is < 10A.

The 30A fuses are probably being used because 20A fuses blew too often. As a kid i recall using 15A branch fuses (for a house with only 40A total service,

Not sure I have 30A of appliances in my living space but it depends on what circuits the hot water, washer/dryer, dishwasher, etc are on.

It all adds up.

JR
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